The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

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Gwynzer
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The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by Gwynzer »

So a thing I've seen pop up in the Survey's a lot is issues with Balance. I think a thread discussing the systems we use, and have tried in the past, and the reasoning behind them is long overdue. Many responses are along the lines of "better balance", "need to balance the armies more" "Better choosing of teams". Easy to say, not easy to do :P


What is Balance?

This in itself can be a complicated question. Balance is having so both armies have got exactly the same abilities, numbers, activity, etc. Saying "we need more balance" is easy, however actually balancing armies in GC is hard. Start with a set of scales and a set of blocks all with different size's, weight's and shape, colour, and material. It's very easy to put them on the scales so that the weight's are balanced, but there's a lot more to play to make sure that both side's are actually the same. When you have to factor in all of the other variable's you're sitting with a much more difficult task on your hands.

The same applies to GC. There are quite a few comment's on our survey (and this is less than 12 hours on) which beleive that if we solve factor X (other than factor X being "balancce") then all our problems are solved. This is rarely the case. As an example I'll include what kind of information is to be considered for all players in order to start trying to make a balance. I'm sure some of our more recent officer candidate's could even add to this. Most of these could even be broke down, for example for Armour Skill the person would be evaluated for their ability in each idividual asset. For Availability the HC group of an army would take a look at a persons past attendance, as well as what they've said they could probably do this campaign.

Infantry Skil
Armour Skill
Air Skill
Level of Teamwork
Attendance of Battledays
Times Available on Battledays
Attendance of other event's (Training, BO's)
Squad Leader Willingness
Squad Leader Ability
Squad Level Communications
Forum Participation (Feedback threads, AARs etc)
Geographical Location
Attitude

There are more that can be added, but those are all things that are commonly added. Everything has different levels of importance, of course. I've seen EXTREMELY skilled players being ranked very low due to a very poor attitude. When it comes to officer level, the importance of some of the above change, and there are some more added into the mix:

Leadership (NOT SL, Officer Type Leadership) Willingness
Leadership Ability
Leadership Experience
FC Ability
RISK Ability
AAR Input


Those are a lot of factors to balance. It's easy to see why we have imbalance, and also very easy to miss out some of the factors. Not an easy job to do.


How are Draft's done?

We've tried multiple different type's of draft in the past, the standard we alway's fall back to though is the football lineup style. If you're unfamiliar, 2 individuals are piccked to be leaders of the team, and they take turns picking players from the rest of the group until there is no one left. There are even variations of this, but I'll discuss that later. We typically run what I like to call the "Sensible" variation, which is where we split people up by signup division, so there is an infantry, Armour, and Air draft.

The draft selection systems are probably the most "secretive" process as prior to campaigns end, armies do a cleanup of the draft document. This is usually just to save drama and/or cause hurt feelings and arguments. Draft Document's will contain feedback about each player from all officers in the army, sometimes this feedback may be negative, or people may be unhappy with how they've been "sorted" in the list.

A typical draft document will usually be a Google Spreadsheet with different tab's per division. Each row will start with the name of the signups. The next columns will be a number rating of that player from each officer in the army. Further along in the document are spaces for officers to lead feedback on that player. This may be something like "A very good player, a must have for the army, potential first pick" or "Player has said he can play all battleday's for the full 6 hours. He's said this the past 2 campaigns and has only made 1 battleday out of 3, and only stayed for half of it". The feedback may be in the form of an "FYI", or it may be placed so that other officers can read prior to casting their rating, and have that influence their decision. a DO NOT WANT rating will often be considered and move that player down the sorted list, even if their average is OK.

The way player's are typically rated in the document that has became "Standard" since Runaway's army in BF3C3 is as follows (I'll clean up a document and post an example later). There are variations on this document, but this one seems to be the one that has been picked up and/or modified by most armies.

1: Must Have
2: Almost Must Have
3: Would Like to Have
4: Draft Late If Available.
5: No Opinion (Does not count towards averaging)
6: Actively do not want.


When it get's closer to draft time, the ratings of the officers get averaged and the draft order is decided by a sort on the average. Often the armies will move people up and down on that list independant of that rating, but it's a good way to start your sort order. An example here being a person with a single rating of "1" but every other officer vote's "5" (which isn't counted in the averaging) will find themselves at the top of the list. If only the one person has voted "1" though, chances are they'll be moved down the list in favour for a person with five "1"s and a "2".

There will also be some small change's in the list as the draft is actually being done. Some people may be picked as "counters" to the enemy picks. Sometimes a few people will be skipped after picking one person, as you know they play well with player X so you choose them next.

When it comes to an armies draft process, the ultimate responsibility ends up with that General. Although the officers all have a say, it's up to the General to make the final decision during the draft. It's also the responsibility of the General (and by extension, their HC) to make sure that all officers are putting the time in to rate people.

I'd like to say, as it seems a lot of people are unaware: the TA's do NOT have a say, or get involved with the draft choices. The involvement of the TA's with the draft is to make sure it goes smoothly, and to make sure that people go to the correct armies after being picked. The TA's play a minor part in balance by assigning the post-draft signups, but there are typically very few of these. If a significant number signed up, TA's would work with the armies to put people in the right place.


Different Draft Styles

In my time at GC we've tried many different types of draft system, and discussed many more. As you're now aware, balancing armies is not an easy task. We put a lot of work into designing systems and doing the draft itself.

Football Style
2 leaders, all "unassigned" people are part of the same group. Leaders take turns picking. It's simple, but it's indredibly hard to keep any kind of balance when infantry, armour and air are in the same group.

"Sensible" Football Style
Same as above but we split the draft into the Air/Armour/Infantry signups and draft through each group before moving to the next. This is the "standard" and what we always fallback to

Complete Balance Draft
All of the players who have signed up are compiled into a list, armies work together and move people between each army until they are both happy (read: mutally unhappy) that the teams are balanced. This is incredibly time intensive and usually still doesn't work as both teams will be sour at all the comromises that had to be made, and also things like player attendance is impossible to balance due to the fact things happen in peoples lives and that effects their ability to play.

Skill Pre-Draft
The higher skilled and "key" players are sorted as above. It usually results in the same thing, as when it comes to the lower end of a balance draft playernames are just being placed anywhere because everyone is getting sick of the meeting. There is usually a little bit of this every campaign. Usually as airforce has only got about 8 people signed up, the Generals feel pretty happy to try and balance them out.

Groups
Some people really want to play with others. In some cases it's a couple of friends within GC who work well together and want to stick together. Sometimes it's a case of there being a "primary" member who is active in GC, and he has a bunch of friends who aren't really part of GC, but play with us because the primary member does. They're only really interested in playing with the primary, if they're not kept together they just won't turn up. It's a bit crap, but it's what happens.

We try to keep groups together, within reason. Sometimes it's been an active part of the draft. We've had cases where the "groups" have been involved in whatever form of "pre-draft" is going on. We've had agreements that if you pick one member of Group X, your next picks will be the remainder of the group. Usually there's an unspoken agreement that if you pick a player who has "hangers on", you'll pick them soon too. You can continue with the draft as normal but don't take the piss and leave them till the end, or have them ending up on the other team where you know they won't play. That's unfair for that team and unfair on those players who don't get to play. I'm going to hit groups later on too, as there are some other factors at play with how they sometimes work.


Officer Draft

Officer Draft is quite a bit different from the standard player draft, maintaining balance is just as important though. You could have an army of amazing players, but if you don't have the office corps to get them working together, your army will lose. You could have the best officer corps the community has ever seen, but if the players you pick for your playerdraft are just people who turn up just for battledayss and don't even look at the forum, they're not going to be able to lead and develop the army effectively, and they'll lose. It's important not just to have a balanced officer group between the armies, but you also have to work with the fact that these have to people who work well together and are the type of people who are willing to work to building the type of army that the General wants. Again, there are many factors to consider.

When the Generals are picked, they often get together and work with the "Dev" group and work out High Command. The Dev group consists of TAs, Execs, and any "persons of note" of previous campaigns, usually the last couple of campaigns worth of Generals. The group will take a look at people who have volunteered to HC roles, say who would be an effective counter for another person, suggest people who are maybe not on the list, and suggest groups who'd work together well. Even calling them "advisory" is a bit much, it's more that the group just provides some feedback on certain people who are good to the role, there shouldn't be much pressure on the Generals to pick any of the suggestions. The Generals make the picks.

Both armies HC's get together to decide the Captains, Lt's and any Warrant Officers. They choose and invite the people who they think will do well for them. There is not always discussion on this. At officer level and above, it's based on invites. The only true "balancing" act that takes place is agreeing on the numbers of officers per side. Some armies like to talk through and agree their picks with the other side, some armies like to just choose their own guy's with no consulting or checking with the other side. Both armies try to get the "best" officer corps they can, this usually naturally ends up with some kind of balance. It won't be perfect, but because it's a smaller group of people things shouldn't be too far out of whack.


Hopefully this gives some good oversight to the drafting systems we've used, and also a small look into the "why". All of our fancy systems for doing drafts has resulted in total failure, we go back to the you-pick-I-pick because it's simple and works best. If anyone has any questions, speak up. If you have suggestions on different systems, we're open to hearing it. it's quite probably we've discussed it before, but even if we have, things may have changed since then or you have a better idea for implementation.




Survey Feedback
I'd like to address some specific feedback I've seen from the survey so far (again, not even a full day yet, I will probably revisit this), no names:

would like too see random draft with some kind of proof. felt like SAD was handpicking players,
I'll start with the second part first: SAD were handpicking players. As were JANUS; it was a competetive draft. I'm not sure what's meant by a "random" draft, if this is basically putting everyones names into a random generator and hitting go, there are two big problems with that. The first being that is pretty much a complete guarantee there WILL be unbalance, I don't see how that will solve any of our problems. The second being that does not allow our Generals to build the armies they want. Instead they are forced to work with this group of people they'd possibly never have picked, that doesn't seem fun for the players or for the officers who have to work with them. As for proof, the draft date for the past few campaigns has been announced well ahead of time and it's been public for anyone to hear. I'm not too sure what else is needed? If you want to maybe explain your points (or argue :P ) feel free to post here or PM me to continue it, I'm not sure I fully understand.

So far so good. Maybe make a way to ensure one army doesn't end up dominating the other throughout the entire campaign.
This is something I've been thinking about for a long time. What can be done, once a campaign is underway, to tip the balance? Most things lie with the Generals and the team they build: For a while in BF3C4, DARK Gladius were winning. That's not how it ended. Star rallied and came back to destroy. Is there anything we can do external of the armies? TA's tend to assign more post-draft signup players to the losing army, the problem is there aren't enough signups for them to be effective in any way. I like the idea of having some kind of "Neutral" group again, compiled of very good players. This neutral group should play with whatever army has the lowest WCP. The problem with doing this is that it keeps those players out of lots of the community buildding stuff. They don't get forum access as that could lead to no end of drama ("OMG THEY KNEW MY STRATS!"), they don't feel as involved, they don't feel "part" of an army and they don't want to play so much. I don't know how to solve that problem. The best we can do is have the TA group full of MLG So SkiLlZ players, but those type of people aren't necessarily going to make good TAs.

My mind's tellin me noooooo...
But mah bodyyyy. Mah bodyyy's telllen me yeaaaaahhhhhhh


if you recruit a friend he will always be on your army. Otherwise there's no point of recruiting friends.
This is back to groups, but there's multiple parts to this. If a player recruits a friend in the middle of a campaign and they signup after the draft, as long as they mention on the draft that they want to play with a friend they will get to do so. The TA's Crystal Ball is unfortunately many years out of calibration so they can't make that pairing happen if they're not informed. :lol:

When it comes to someone who has played with GC before, it's a bit of a different story. GC is all about meeting new people and building friendships, and then mercilessly tearing those friendships apart as you're put on different teams and become rivals. I mean, continuing to build links within the community when armies change and you end up with new teammates. Signing up with groups doesn't really work towards that goal.

It's certainly allowed, and tolerated to a certain extent. It really depends on the people. I view there as being two kind's of groups, and I'm going to go with the two extremes. The Ghoul / SargeBUD combo and the old KCK possy. Ghoul and Sarge are both long time player's at GC, they get involved in community stuff and are both outstanding guys. They prefer to play on the same side but won't refuse to play if that match isn't made. I don't think I've ever seen them split up.

On the other hand there was the old KCK grouping. (Some long timers know EXACTLY the people I mean, not everyone in the group was bad.) There was a group of MLG So Pro guy's who came around, destroyed everything infront of them, while being dicks. They didn't participte in any community stuff whatsoever, sometimes it felt like they just used us for "practice". People did not work to keep that group together.

Some people in this community are dead against any kind of grouping whatsoever. Most people are willing to tolerate so long as it doesn't take the piss. There are people who sign up late EVERY SINGLE CAMPAIGN with the idea of guranteeing a chance to play with their friends. This just adds another massive headache to balancing, and it's frustrating for Generals and TA's when it happens. I feel sometimes that the people who do this are taking advantage of the TA's lack of spite, it's very tempting to put them on the opposite team whenever I see it.

So a tl;dr for groupings: They'll be tolerated, so long as they aren't too big, and so long as the people in them aren't trying to take advantage and game the system.





3000 words holy rattlesnakes. I've been typing this at work, time for me to actually start working lol. :thumbup:
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by Tea-Assault »

Very comprehensive and informative thanks Gwyn, balance is an issue that we need to address. And my personal preference is to try the BF3C4 balance system, and have some sort of "balance roster" for new arrivals after the draft to keep things fair (and not have one army get a load of new people who are very talented tipping the balance).

Though I'd like to take this opportunity to say that we do need more players in GC. It's fine having balance but if there aren't even enough players to field a full 64 man server with at least 8 people sat in the army waiting room ready to be cycled in, what is the point in having the slots in the server? GC has shrivelled somewhat, and I think that we need to take some time to think about how we can improve the website and the actual experience of the battledays themselves to keep people turning up and having fun. Recruitment isn't the issue here, the issue is that we don't have enough resources to keep people here.

Some recommendations for how to achieve this:-

Have casters set up in the spectator slots to keep people in the waiting rooms entertained, casters who practice casting the clutch moments and are good with camera angles and talking about what is going on as it happens (ie. they are able to project an interesting and exciting voiceover whilst the battle is going on). Calloutman (oops, not him but the american with the name that begins with a 'C'), Daskro and the guys who did the BF4 Beta obliteration rounds are prime examples of this.

Form an easy access image repository for all the maps and modes that we will be using for main battledays. This way it makes it easier for the people at the very bottom of the army structure to take an image to MS paint, think up an interesting strategy and draw on top of it. Who cares if the idea looks ridiculous? Give constructive feedback and see how it works on the day!

The weekly podcast was really fun to watch, perhaps this time we can devote more resources to making it involve the community more (like having some sort of weekly top plays or highlight reel that people can send their battleday or BO clips into). A clear structure for how the podcast works would be nice, like having the week in review fist with the news. Then maybe some discussions or interviews with people in each army getting their views on the campaign. Then some off topic stuff that we all like to hear you guys chat about!

Finally, and this is a pipe dream, redesign the website. This means when we get new players, they find it really easy to navigate and get involved straight away with the community. It would also give us a new, professional appearance and if we could improve user ex by making it more streamlined then bonus points all round.
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Bock
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by Bock »

Gwynzer wrote: For a while in BF3C4, DARK Gladius were winning.
FTFY

2/10 crap post would not read again.

JustKiddingYouActuallyNailedPrettyMuchEveryProblemRelatedToArmyBalance
BF3C3: DARK - Inf - SFC || BF3C4: STAR - Inf - 1Lt || BF3C5: KART - Armor - Cpt
BF3C6: SCAR - HC - Col || BF4C1: USSR - Mech - Kpt || BF4C2: GOCI - Inf - Lt
BF4C3: TCF - Bronx - Sgt. Maj. || BF4C4: JANUS - Air - Pvt || BF4C5: TA
BF4C6: SAD - Armor - Cpt
Gwynzer
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by Gwynzer »

Bock wrote:JustKiddingYouActuallyNailedPrettyMuchEveryProblemRelatedToArmyBalance

My hope is that we provide a bit of a better understanding to the proces and to WHY things aren't balanced. I also hope this stops the complaints of "omg moar balance" and changes them into some constructive feedback we can use to improve the system. At this stage we're pretty much out of ideas.
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by KILLERCANKILL »

Gwynzer wrote:
On the other hand there was the old KCK grouping. (Some long timers know EXACTLY the people I mean, not everyone in the group was bad.) There was a group of MLG So Pro guy's who came around, destroyed everything infront of them, while being dicks. They didn't participte in any community stuff whatsoever, sometimes it felt like they just used us for "practice". People did not work to keep that group together.

:thumbup: interesting point :)
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by Gwynzer »

I think it's a pretty fair and accurate assessment of how things were at the time. It may be different now, we're all always growing (except in height unfrtuantely :( ), but I think I was on the money there :P
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by KILLERCANKILL »

Gwynzer wrote:I think it's a pretty fair and accurate assessment of how things were at the time. It may be different now, we're all always growing (except in height unfrtuantely :( ), but I think I was on the money there :P
To me those campaigns in GC (STAR vs gladius and the one after that) were the most memorable bcz each day was hard fought, even with STAR having the "KCK group" it was a long campaign and probably the most memorable in GC. After that I think people got into a habit of blaming skill balance rather than lack of strategic thinking as a balance factor.
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by Gwynzer »

I partly agree, I think people cared a lot more about skill balance after that campaign than before. I don't think we've seem the same kind of strategical and "hard fought" victory since then, but that's, more than anything, been down to not having "competative" enough army groups. It's not always the Generals, the right HC and officer corps, as well as players, is required for those kind of campaigns to happen.

Getting to that level requires an insane amount of drive and support. It's not an easy thing, and to constantly maintain that level of effort becomes draining extremely quickly.
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by Jokerle »

Gwynzer wrote: omg moar balance
This
HowToQuote101

:angel:

And regarding the actual topic:

a) Transferring people between armies during the active campaign has been done in some (long) past campaigns, right? No? Yes? How did that work out?

b) I think having a "neutral" or "mercenaries" group is the only way to deal with imbalances arising from (high-skill) players joining after the draft and drafted high-skill players with attendance issues.
edit: ideally those neutrals are on the "skilled" side of the player spectrum.
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by RazY70 »

Anyway you look at it all starts from the top. Execs+TA's pick Generals; Generals pick their HC; HC picks officers and so on. The fact you can pretty much predict which army in going to win by looking at the General/HC is indicative that things should first be examined at that level. The General and HC shape the armies which will later meet on the battlefield.
Tea-Assault wrote: [...] keep people turning up and having fun. Recruitment isn't the issue here, the issue is that we don't have enough resources to keep people here.
That's an important point which begs the question what is considered "fun" in a competitive environment? And yes, a campaign is in principle a competition in which both sides strive or at least should strive to win. That's what it's all about. It should be clear to the Generals, it should be damn clear to the HC, it should be clear to the Officers, and it should also be clear to the grunts. If you want to play casual and have some fun with your friends, you can join a public server. You don't need to pay $200/month to do that.

I agree that recruitment isn't the issue here but I disagree that resources are. The issue, In my opinion, is that we don't have campaigns that generate enough interest and challenge to keep people here. You can podcast till you're blue in the face, have a fantastic website, and youtube everything. All those thing do is generate expectations. But when those expectation shatter with each additional failed one sided campaign people will leave. A one sided campaign is not fun for either side, although obviously much less fun to the losing side.

Suggestions?
  • Get the community more involved in the selection of the Generals. Opening a funny thread about who would be the new General isn't considered involvement. We should have a say in it.
  • Make sure HC's are balanced, committed, and know what they're doing
  • Guide and explain what's expected from the HC. Follow-up and make sure things are done (e.g. don't wait till a day before the draft to think about who to pick)
  • Scratch bad one sided campaigns and start over
  • Instill a more competitive attitude. Competitiveness isn't a dirty word. Winning is fun, and losing with grace isn't that bad either.
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by elchino7 »

The only problem with the last campaign is that the first scrims + BFI showed up how it was going to be the campaign and on moments like this i think that a call for a new draft should had been done instead of waiting 3 more weeks for the campaign to just end.
Because when a team is winning 90% of the maps with a rate of 250+ tickets, i don't think theres going to be a miracle that flips the campaign 180°.

BF3C4 was great, because still at the end, both teams still had wins at a reasonable number on each BD. STAR just managed to be more efficiently risk wise while winning by a bit more.
-.--.-.-.--.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Reason why a "balanced" campaign may end:
-Huge player drop during midcampaign
-some keypositions (pilots for example) or skillful players missing
-some bad losing streak affecting the morale.
-Some team step ups it's skills. IMO theres lot of potential on BF4 which hasn't been use in comparison to BF3

Besides getting freshblood and putting the "skillfull" TA on the losing team*, theres not much to do. A campaign has to end at some point.
*Ex: T-assault did a lot on the last BD on the choppers to let us stay head to head with Janus.
-.--.-.-.--.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
At the end of the day you need more players, and specially retain them. Knowing and asking why people LEAVE is a good start.
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by Divine-Sneaker »

Don't think I can say I disagree with anything. Well written post and it's actually nice to hear(see) anything in depth about the army building process without necessarily having to dedicate yourself to the point where you'd basically automatically make HC rank based on commitment.

What I would personally like is for a slight bit more transparency in the ongoing army building. Not necessarily disclosing every single bit of information that might piss people off, such as reason for people not feeling someone would make a good general, officer or x, y, z.

However, building up to a campaign is much like anything these days, if you can't lead up to the start with something to keep people hyped or at the very least interested, they're not going to be invested.

We usually have a generals nomination thread, that's good but is there really anything wrong with announcing who is seriously being considered once the initial trolling phase and nominations of people who have no interest is gone by? To me it might get me more interested than if there's eventually 2 generals announced that I don't even really know anything about.

Why were they chosen, what should make me want to fight their fight, and invest my time?
If people I know, like or simply respect for their skill or commitment were instead mentioned as people in the running for general or other HC positions, maybe I could pitch in and actually argue why I feel they're deserving. Or maybe just make some silly support posts to magically convince them to actually commit where they otherwise wouldn't.

All in all, involve the community by reaching out and letting people feel like they're a part of the process and that the opinion of the general grunt actually has a say. It's not actually involving people if they feel obligated to commit more than they feel like to even begin to be heard.


On a final note, playing as a neutral would not in any way make me feel less involved than I have felt for several campaigns in a row since I've in no way felt invested in the armies at all.
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by Gwynzer »

There's a few requests for transparency here and in the survey. To that all I've got to say is we (execs) have certainly taken that on board and for now, "stay tuned."

I can walk through what the General Selection Process has been so far for our BF4 Campaigns. I'd like to point out now that the overall goal of choosing generals is to pick two people who are of somewhat similar skill, temperament and attitude. There is no point in pairing a "relaxed" general with a Do-or-Die-Super-Extreme-Effort-Win-At-All-Costs general. It's obvious to everyone where that campaign is going to go. If there's a single "Super Competitive" applicant and two "Will put in effort but not go OTT" applicants, we're going to match the latter two against each other.


BF4C1
Cheesy (Soviets) vs Shrap (Allies)
We wanted to start this off with a bang. The development group agreed on choosing tried and tested Generals who are both competitive and dedicated, as well as fairly competitive. The idea was to continue this at the very least into the HC of the armies, who were chosen too. The choice to give the Generalships to Cheesy and Shrap was pretty much a no-brainer to anyone who has been around GC for a long time. I think that campaign skewed to one side a bit due to some bad timing with Shrap and his work. I thought that the campaign wasn't too bad though, but in saying that I was on the winning side.


BF4C2
Hitman (9MEU) vs Fields (GoCI)
I think everyone involved from the beginning knew that this was not an even matchup. Fields is chillax to the extreme, and Hitman is... not. :P At the time, it felt like all we had available. I've just went and looked at the survey results and at the time we had ONE person sign up for General. I'd normally not divulge names, but shall this time due to my later point, this one person was Necromancer. At the time I believe Necro had no "significant" form of leadership experience, I don't think. Perhaps armour captain? I'm honestly not sure, it was a while ago. As such he was dismissed from the selection. There are usually a few people every campaign who we immediately dismiss from being General, quite often there are people who sign up who have only played for a small part of the previous campaign. Within that campaigns development group, Fields and Hitman were the only two people willing to step up and do the role.

I think, with hindsight and learning Necros abilities, Necro V Hitman would have had the potential to be very competitive and balanced campaign. Both people are admittedly not teddy bears and that could have caused some raised tempers and angry people. Or the campaign could still be going right now. We don't know, and there's no point dwelling on it - I think that, given the information we knew at the time, we made the best of a bunch of bad choices.


BF4C3
Insanity (TCF) vs Sloth (LN7)
Two Generals of similar temperaments and dedication. Both very committed to the GC community and good at the role. They were the obvious picks and frankly they were overdue for volunteering anyway. I think both armies had different strategies to the draft (I believe LN7 went for "skill", and TCF went for "Reliability) and that's what started the slow slide. It wasn't a great difference, and I think that the victory to TCF was really based on a "winning week" they had where they isolated everything they wanted on the Risk map. A lot of time, practice, and planning went into that week, I don't think it was an undeserved victory, effort was expended. Again for this one I was playing from the winning side, you'd have to ask a neutral (or Sloth/one of his HC) on their opinion.


BF4C4
Cog (SAD) vs Wild (JANUS)
There was quite a bit of discussion for this one as we had 3 serious applicants of the same level. Some more people signed up later, but by the time they did so the choice had been made. As I said above, we aim for getting generals who are the have the same kind of attitude and skill level, and I think Cog and Wild are pretty on par. As I was TAing and the campaign is still "fresh", I'm not going to make any comments on where thing's went wrong (TAs shouldn't have opinions :lol: ), but I think, especially WITH hindsight, that the right guy's were chosen based on the applicants.
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Bock
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by Bock »

RazY70 wrote:Anyway you look at it all starts from the top.
And then it's up to everyone to keep things going. I kind of get the feeling that a lot of people just want to show up on Saturdays and have things be magically organized, balanced and exciting. The truth is, the leadership is reliant on the community to keep things going. Yes, it's the officers' jobs to sort people out in teamspeak on the battleday and to start discussions on the forums, but without grunts who are engaged even when they're not on the BF server, nothing great is going to happen. An officer can only write so many map strat threads with no replies before he grows disheartened. Even more so when he has to write a strat for an unknown number of players because attendance is low. How shitty is it to see a channel full of muted mics in the post-battle debrief?
RazY70 wrote: Suggestions?
  • Get the community more involved in the selection of the Generals. Opening a funny thread about who would be the new General isn't considered involvement. We should have a say in it.
  • Make sure HC's are balanced, committed, and know what they're doing*
  • Guide and explain what's expected from the HC. Follow-up and make sure things are done (e.g. don't wait till a day before the draft to think about who to pick)**
  • Scratch bad one sided campaigns and start over***
  • Instill a more competitive attitude. Competitiveness isn't a dirty word. Winning is fun, and losing with grace isn't that bad either.****
* and **HC balance is important and generals should work together with the campaign dev group to pick HCs that have fairly balanced experience, leadership ability and skillsets. But at the end of the day, the generals are going to pick who they think they want to work with and spend a lot of time on TS with. HCs typically have at least a full campaign of officer duties under their belt. Generals have more. It's not like they don't know what needs to get done. When HCs end up unbalanced or it seems like an HC isn't getting stuff done, it's due to a lack of qualified and motivated candidates, which goes back to the community getting excited and involved of their own accord. That's where HCs come from.

***How soon can one decide a campaign is bad and one-sided? And if it's bad and one-sided, it's probably because the HC selection and officer draft ended up unbalanced. What are the odds that we'll be able to find new general candidates who will do better than the ones that ended up with a one-sided campaign two weeks after it started. If we can find better, why didn't they get picked in the first place?

****Excellent idea.
BF3C3: DARK - Inf - SFC || BF3C4: STAR - Inf - 1Lt || BF3C5: KART - Armor - Cpt
BF3C6: SCAR - HC - Col || BF4C1: USSR - Mech - Kpt || BF4C2: GOCI - Inf - Lt
BF4C3: TCF - Bronx - Sgt. Maj. || BF4C4: JANUS - Air - Pvt || BF4C5: TA
BF4C6: SAD - Armor - Cpt
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RazY70
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Re: The "Balance" Problem (Survey Feedback)

Post by RazY70 »

I agree it is part of everyone to keep things going. It is a team effort and you're part of the team. But, I don't think everyone has the same part in it or responsibility. That's why we have different roles. If an HC member volunteered and agreed to take more responsibility upon himself then he should better be up to it or else step down or be replaced. His title isn't just so he can have a nice avatar on the forum. If there are ongoing issues they're not going to fix themselves. It's up to the General and downwards to figure out what the problems are and how to best fix them. That's what they're there for. If they feel they can't do that then just frigging surrender. You're not doing anyone a favor by dragging out a bad campaign hoping for a miracle.

As for strats, I can understand it can be frustrating to work on a strat and get no comment on it. But it can be equally frustrating from the other side. People comment on strats and suggest alternatives which are totally disregarded. It makes the entire process seem cursory and consequently ignored. Debriefs are just a pat on the back after a long battleday. Nothing serious is expected to come out of them. That is what AAR's are for and unfortunately they are not very helpful either in my opinion. Normally they are just a regurgitation of what your squad did. You can't and don't learn anything from that so why bother. It's far more important to understand was done right, and more importantly what was done wrong. It's also beneficial to understand what the other side did. This is something you can work with and learn from.
Bock wrote:But at the end of the day, the generals are going to pick who they think they want to work with and spend a lot of time on TS with.
I totally agree and I think that's one of the problems. The people you know and are comfortable working with aren't necessarily the best ones for the job at hand. So the organizers can step in and either advise the general (who might also be inexperienced) that maybe he should pick someone else, or bring the ones he picked up to speed so that they may perform better. Not everyone knows what he needs to do as a General or HC. As for the potential candidates, well nothing much can be done about that but knowledge is power. One thing is certain though, an inexperienced general with an inexperienced HC is a recipe for a bad campaign.
Bock wrote:How soon can one decide a campaign is bad and one-sided?
We have 2 scrims and a BFI, add 2 more battledays and you should get a pretty good picture. At that point you should at the very least discuss the option to scratch the campaign with the HC's of both armies.
Bock wrote:if it's bad and one-sided, it's probably because the HC selection and officer draft ended up unbalanced. What are the odds that we'll be able to find new general candidates who will do better than the ones that ended up with a one-sided campaign two weeks after it started. If we can find better, why didn't they get picked in the first place?
Leave the two Generals and start from there. After some reshuffling I don't think it should take more than 2 weeks to restart. While it's uncertain whether we can find better, it's pretty certain the current pick isn't working out. Hindsight can do wonders sometimes.
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